Sunday, 22 February 2009

Awesome comment on "Take These Broken Wings"

A good year ago, I had a rather unpleasant discussion with Kirsten Sefland (she's out in public, so I'm sure, she won't mind), a mental health consumer and a fierce advocate for ect and the psychiatric "treatment" of life problems in general.

I started out with just asking Kirsten Sefland to, please, show me whatever scientific evidence in support of her views there was, while at the same time I sent her a bunch of links to relevant studies and scientific articles, that were in support of my views. I never got as much as one single link back. What I got back were somewhat emotionally loaded, personal attacks - several, yes, and, no, I'm no angel, me neither; although I, by and large, kept my cool during the e-mail correspondence, I did let go of it to a certain extent when I wrote the piece I link to... - one of them accusing me to be "one of these people because of whom young doctors chose not to become psychiatrists". I wish it were true, but I guess, it's a bit too great an honour to assume my rants and ramblings could have such an impact.

Well, someone whose work actually has such an impact, is Daniel Mackler, as this comment at Gianna's blog shows. You both go, Daniel and Bonnie!!!


Ana said...

Isn't it amazing that whenever we try to discuss with some pro-mainstream psychiatry they never read our evidences and always start the personal attack?
I don't discuss with them.
Sometimes I start a discussion with those who are willing to hear from "us'.
I've noticed that they never "have heard of anything like that in my clinical experience".
I had a discussion with Doug Bremner at Fiddaman's blog about PSSD.
He is very intentioned but he had never have heard...
I wrote this post for him:
He didn't answer.
Keep your work and don't care about them.
One day all these stories they consider "anecdotical" will be recognized.

Gianna said...

hey, don't underestimate your rantings and ramblings...

I actually am having an impact on a new doctor in residency and your message and mine are very similar.

this doctor is planning on being a general practitioner...most psych meds are started in a general practitioner's office and not a psychiatrists, contrary to popular belief...

this doctor in residency is now in possession of 14 of my books that question psychiatry and offer alternative perspectives. He reads my blog and has passed it on to his friends...

he will be mailing back my library when he is done with them!! that was part of the deal!

WE CAN make an impact, even on those who prescribe these drugs...there are a few docs out there who are willing to listen

Marian said...

Ana: thanks for the link to your post! It's a great post, and I'll probably link to it from that post on the matter, that I'll write some day soon, for my Danish blog.

I've been to Fiddy's blog, and read the thread there. At least half of it. I had enough, when I read Doug's "I am sorry you had a bad experience...", which to me sounds exactly like: "You shouldn't generalize from your certainly nothing but anecdotal experience!" if not it sounds a bit like: "Oh, you had a bad experience?! Then, what's wrong with you??" Well, and then the inevitable: "It is also possible that depression may cause loss of libido." There obviously are no limits whatsoever to what physical phenomena these "mental illnesses" can cause! At least, there is virtually no drug side effect, I haven't yet seen get attributed to the "underlying mental condition" by one or the other shrink.

Not ever to engage in what you know beforehand will develop into an emotionally (over-)loaded argument with them certainly is the wisest thing to do. Usually, it's only unpleasant, exhausting, and it does rarely lead anywhere else than to you getting more hurt. No matter how hard one tries to keep it matter-of-fact. Unfortunately, sometimes my (hurt) feelings just still run away with me, although I should know better...

Gianna: the whole circus usually starts with one or the other SSRI/SNRI or benzo, recommended by your therapist, and/or prescribed by your GP, yes. "Have you considered seeing your GP and getting 'something'?" - First session. I'd hardly said anything. Except for muttering something in the direction of that I didn't like being in this world anymore. She'd made up her mind, that I was depressed. On the basis of one single sentence. I wasn't!

I think, it's Breggin who explicitly says, that if they offer you "something" the first time you see them, you should walk out and never go back. I hadn't read Breggin, or anything alike, at the time.

Actually, my boss asked me for a list over some links/books, I'd recommend for a GP, who was contemplating to specialize in psychiatry too, but wanted to know more about it first. I put some of the basics together, Robert Whitaker among other things. All I know is that the guy had second thoughts. Had said something like psychiatry was ridiculous. But if his enlightenment is due to my link/book list, or his own research, or whatever, I don't know.

Marian said...

P.S.: When it dawned on her (third session) that I wasn't depressed, but psychotic, it wasn't the GP anymore, it was a shrink. Nevertheless, still only and solely in order to "get 'something', since that's all shrinks are trained to do", give you "something".

Marian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marian said...

..."Physical phenomena" - that is both physical and psychological phenomena, of course. Whatever, bottom line: unwanted effects are always caused by the "illness", feeling better is always caused by the medication... NOT!

Ana said...

I've seen many times the "I am sorry you had a bad experience..." at Furious Seasons not only for me but for a lot of other people.
I also "like" the "I'm open to hear about new side effects. Please tell your experience and I'll be glad..."
Sometimes I would like to copy that discussion with Doug just as an example. But I don't want to have another discussion with him.
I'll search for other examples and unite them all.
You are right when you say "...rarely lead anywhere else than to you getting more hurt."
The sad part of it is when we are in front of them reporting a side effect and theydon't take it seriously.
I just wanted them to start listening to children and toddlers.
At least to them.